“A relationship is a gift that keeps on giving and yeah, there may not be a one on one return of investment there, but you don't you don't know if you don't try and build that deeper connection first.” - Jamie Chapman

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Relationships in Business with Jamie Chapman

Welcome to Imperfection in Progress, a podcast for ambitious women who are people-pleasers, perfectionists, or procrastinators. Want to feel less stress and more joy in your life? Then this is for you. I’m your host Dawn Calvinisti.

In this episode I’m joined by Jamie Chapman. Jamie is a Consultant for Small Business Owners like YOU who are ready to feel more positive and excited about the business you’re building. (Yes, it’s possible!) 

She takes a holistic view of life and business. She loves working with compassionate, empathetic human beings who want to thrive in all areas of their lives and grow strategically and systematically. She doesn’t believe in cookie-cutter solutions for your business! She takes an individualized, multifaceted approach to problem-solving so you can move forward in a way that’s unique to you. 

Being a consultant for small businesses is her zone of genius, and her goal is to empower you to be successful in yours!

You can learn more about Jamie by visiting her website chickbookcreative.com

If you struggle with finding relationship and community within your business then you are going to love hearing what Jamie has to say.

Here’s our conversation.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Dawn Calvinisti: I'd like to welcome Jamie Chapman to the podcast. I am so excited about having this conversation with you today. 

[00:00:07] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, thanks for having me Dawn. I'm really excited to have this conversation. 

[00:00:10] Dawn Calvinisti: When it comes to this particular month, and we're discussing relationships and all kinds of formats, but I think one of the ones, especially for listeners who are female entrepreneurs who tend to deal sometimes with just themselves, because they're working alone or maybe working online and don't have a lot of connection with others. But I think sometimes when we talk about relationships in business, it's not just business to business or person to person that you're dealing with.

Sometimes it's affecting our families or our friendships or our lack of friendships.

And so I'd love if we can kind of dive into all of that today, Jamie. 

[00:00:48] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, it's something that I see in the entrepreneurial space for sure. I tend to work with a lot of women in business, and when we work for ourselves, it can get pretty lonely. So it's important to have community and build your own relationships.

But that also stems into relationships with your clients and your customers and people that you may collaborate with. So it's a big topic. 

[00:01:10] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, as a woman entrepreneur yourself, what started your journey? How did you get into the space and what you're doing now? 

[00:01:18] Jamie Chapman: Well, I spent 25 years of my career working for men in entrepreneurial spaces and just kind of finding myself working my way to the, to the ceiling, being underneath the owners, but never really truly being the owner.

And during the great resignation, I decided, during COVID, I decided to just quit my job and start my own, my own business and entered into the entrepreneurial space of my own and, on the topic of relationship, it was, I was really struggling to find a community that I felt that I fit in, that I belonged, that was for me, that wanted to talk about difficult conversations, curiosity, relationship building all while growing a business at the same time. So I created my own.

[00:02:02] Dawn Calvinisti: I love that. I think we hear that over and over women who are just seeing something missing and deciding, hey, like, I can fill that niche. And even this podcast, this is part of why it was developed was just something I was seeing as a missing piece.

So I love, I love that you did that. I have a question for you specifically around that before we get into everything else. When you decided that you were going to, jump into entrepreneurial space on your own with your own business, was there a difference in what you found for relationships as compared to working for other people?

[00:02:37] Jamie Chapman: That's an interesting question. I think that I really loved having the control over the relationships that I built and who I collaborated with and who I worked with, rather than working for someone else and being forced into relationships that I didn't really want to necessarily build on. So I think that I really love having the choice, being the decision maker for myself and for the people that I surround myself with rather than having forced relationships.

[00:03:07] Dawn Calvinisti: I love that for sure. I think that's one of the, I think the bonuses of being self employed or being an entrepreneur and feeling like, okay, do I want this or do I not want this? And I get to choose who I actually want to move forward with. Right? 

[00:03:23] Jamie Chapman: Absolutely. 

[00:03:24] Dawn Calvinisti: So when it comes to relationships, one area that I do hear a lot from women when they're working on their own and often, we're from home, we may be behind a computer or on the phone.

Right. But is that lack of, of like companionship community that you talked about where other people get me I'm, I'm seen, right? I have a space and a place where I can go to for support or just to feel encouraged. What are you finding when you're looking at other women this way? 

[00:03:56] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, I find that I, I need a blend of the online and in person.

There's a definite value in just kind of the energy that you exchange in an in person event or networking. But there is such a value to being online that the reach is further, right? That the people that I might never have an opportunity to run into at a local networking and event might be somewhere across the country, like yourself how we connected through somebody that I met online and we may never meet in person.

But once we started talking and collaborating, we were like, we need to have this conversation. So I think it's, it's great to have the opportunity to do a little bit of both as a way to build relationships within just for ourselves, but also in our business.

[00:04:43] Dawn Calvinisti: And what do you see as some of the value that comes from having relationship as we're building these businesses?

[00:04:49] Jamie Chapman: Oh, the value of relationship. I mean, it's, it's coming up in my, my topic for this month is, is kindness. And how important it is that we be kind to others. I think that people buy with their like, know, and trust factor and to build that you've got to start with relationship and I like to view relationship as a kind of a three pronged thing. Like there's you and there's me and then there's the space in between that we need to nurture with each other.

So it's important for us to have compassion for ourselves and for others to have kindness for ourselves and others. But it takes time, energy and attention to build that relationship in between too. 

[00:05:30] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, I think that's the part that often we don't realize when we're, especially when we're in the throes of building a business, like, if you're at the beginning, or kind of the 1st, couple of years and you think well, I'm working with this person. And so I just keep working with this person and I do the thing. But sometimes we don't get that there's a deeper connection that could be built there. That makes for that, that long term customer that again, that loyalty, that trust, that ability, not, not that they're necessarily our best, our best friend.

I'm not saying that, but, but something deeper, right? 

[00:06:04] Jamie Chapman: Something deeper for that relationship. But you've also got to remember, too, that it is not just the relationship that you and I have. It stems out into when you go out into your world. The relationship that you've built with me now becomes a room of opportunity for me in your space and vice versa.

[00:06:23] Dawn Calvinisti: Right, and so many times, I think that's where we don't recognize how important it is that we're building a community, right? Like, that it's not just a 1, 1 time transaction, or even just a 1 on 1 transaction, but it really does spill over. 

[00:06:39] Jamie Chapman: Absolutely, and I think it's relationship is a gift that keeps on giving and yeah, there may not be a one on one return of investment there. But you don't you don't know if you don't try and build that deeper connection first. 

[00:06:54] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, in 2023, my word of the year was community. And it was, it was interesting because as the year progressed that word kept coming up, but I wasn't seeing a lot of result from having that as my, my focus for the year.

I thought the podcast, because it was new, that was going to be the thing and it did create connection and definitely, you meet more people and then you meet people like we did through other people, but it wasn't actually until I did what you're talking about, where you need a little face to face too not just all online that I started to see community fully develop around me and my own personal community. I live in Guatemala, which most people know, but I live in Guatemala and in my community, everybody speaks Spanish. And so I started to teach yoga classes in my very broken Spanish for my community, and in doing that, it changed my own mindset on how important it was watching these women who didn't have a lot of connection suddenly find support and care from the women around them.

And then that started spilling over into my online space and spilling over into the women that I was connecting with remotely. So it is interesting how relationship, like you said, it really does keep giving out and out and out. 

[00:08:14] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, and I love, I mean, I think what you're describing is like human connection, right?

Just being in a space with another person and you even brought up, the language barrier there. Like, you don't need a lot of words to build a connection with another human. You can show care and compassion and kindness just by being present and showing up and building trust. 

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[00:08:33] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, when, when we're working, especially I'm speaking more to women who are working alone or, relatively solo for the majority of their work week, where can we start looking for some of these communities, some of this type of support that we're looking for?

[00:08:49] Jamie Chapman: I love looking outside of the business community for those connections. I think there's some, some real some gifts to be had. So finding something that you might be passionate about, like a, like a creative act, like writing or pottery or music or some way to involve yourself in the community that it doesn't feel like the exchange of like a BNI meeting or a networking meeting where we know what we're there for is to build relationship to build business. You're making a more genuine connection just by showing up as you doing this creative thing and building connection. And you just never know who is on the other side of that table.

[00:09:29] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, I love that because I think that's the mystery right when you put yourself out there and so many times I think I've I have heard from women who the person that they connect the most with or the person that they feel the most comfortable with was not at all where they were expecting to find them or were not who they originally thought they were going to be once they got a little deeper underneath there.

So you're right for sure. 

[00:09:53] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, and just sharing, who you are and the things that you love. I mean, I have a dear friend here locally. We met at a networking event. So it was, intended to be a business relationship. But as soon as she said she was a twin mom, I was like, I'm a twin mom. We're best friends now.

So just that, that small thing of enjoying cheese or wine can really build connection with another human at that human level, which is what I love. 

[00:10:17] Dawn Calvinisti: And I think sometimes too, it can be really hard to, to be vulnerable enough as women and allow others into our space, especially because in this day and age we're pretty quick to want, like want the deep relationship, but we're not really great at being vulnerable, vulnerable enough ourselves in order for that to develop.

And so like that can be a real struggle for women who desperately want and need to have that kind of support that kind of friendship that kind of value in their lives. And yet just don't know how to really be open enough to let that come in. 

[00:10:57] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, I mean, that talks to the other side of, that's not sunshine and rainbows is that relationships are work right?

There's, it's not always warm and fuzzy. Sometimes it is having a hard conversation about how something, um, has you feeling, or maybe someone said something that didn't feel so great and having the willingness and curiosity to dig into and feel safe to share, like, you Hey, that really hurt my feelings.

And you, you are putting, you're being vulnerable to put yourself out there to have those difficult conversations, but I really think that builds deeper connection. 

[00:11:30] Dawn Calvinisti: And the other thing too, sometimes is when we want to hold ourselves as being infallible, like, I, I do it all perfectly. Well, they see me as this person and that can be hard, especially if you are at a different level, a higher level in your business, maybe than some of the others around you to actually be able to say I have needs. I actually am struggling in this right and allow ourselves to show that. 

[00:11:57] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, I can, I can hear the anxiety in that statement too of really wanting to control how you're perceived by others, but we truly don't have any control over how others perceive us. And I think, we could kind of talk on a little bit about perfectionism there too, right?

You, you want to present yourself as this, beautifully, well put together, strong business owner that's making money and everything is great. But there's this human inside that knows that that isn't real, right? 

Who knows that like they put two different socks on this morning or, forgot to feed the dog or, we are all humans moving about the world. And I think, the more that we're open to, to sharing how real things can be to a certain extent, I know it can feel uncomfortable. 

[00:12:42] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, for my perfectionists that are listening, like, I know that that just creates an entire knot in your stomach, thinking about letting someone see that you're not perfect, but in all reality, all of us want to be seen, like, nobody wants to be infallible and everybody looking at you and waiting for you to mess up.

So the sooner you allow people to know that you are human, really, the better it is. 

[00:13:11] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, and I would invite others. I mean, if I see a mom that's struggling in the grocery store with her toddler with the shoe falling off and getting frustrated, like just taking a moment and being like, I see you. Like I've experienced that.

And I know what that's like. It's, you're going to be okay. 

[00:13:26] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah. I mean, how many of us have been there, right? We've all been there. 

[00:13:31] Jamie Chapman: Crying in the grocery store by the eggs. Yeah. No, absolutely. 

[00:13:35] Dawn Calvinisti: Yes. My, my daughter yelled at the cash that I was a wicked stepmother and I'm actually her mother. If, if anything will make you feel less than perfect, it's just having a child in public, a young child in public. So. Jamie, when we're, we're starting through, I guess what we want out of community, what we want out of relationship, what we're needing, maybe even this time, because again, depending where you are in your business we need different things at different points. What is it that we should be maybe doing or looking or should be writing things down? Like, do we make a list like we would for a boyfriend? 

[00:14:09] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, I think it's, to be honest, I think it's actually being willing to be curious, stay curious and willing to have those hard conversations.

I think, I've done it in, the younger years of thinking about the person you want to spend the rest of your life in and all the things that you want and you don't want. But I think it's important to, to, to talk about the hard stuff. If you're looking to build deeper connection with humans, remembering that you have needs, they have needs and there's got to be that willingness to work on the body that's in between. 

[00:14:40] Dawn Calvinisti: One of the things I think that the whole covid situation put us into is a feeling of, like, I, I don't have time to waste to try to sort through things and take forever to figure out what I'm wanting or what I'm needing.

And in some cases, that's actually made it really good because it's given us a bit of a, a time crunch where we're now more willing to be like, okay this is what I want. And so I'm not willing to, like, pretend to be something for you. And when really this is not working well, and it's not going to get us anywhere to continue on in this relationship.

So I think some of that's been really good. It's allowed us to let go of relationships that were not serving us. Some that were toxic, some that just needed to be maybe minimized rather than being a more important relationship. And I think this is an area where it's helped us grow and be willing to be a little more vocal about what we're wanting and I don't know if you've seen that as well, but that's what I'm experiencing in the world I'm in. 

[00:15:41] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, it just happened in my curated conversations this past week, talking about the difference between nice versus kind, and I think we're exhausted in being nice. We're tired of being nice and it's not authentic. It's not real. It's the way we may have been raised You know, it's it's how we try to move about society so that we can go along to get along but it's very inauthentic and we don't want to spend any more time being nice. We, you know, we want to be kind to the people that we want to build relationship with and then you're right there, you know I think COVID made the shift of, I like to say, I had this awakening of like, we're on a big moving rock and nothing really matters, right?

Like our whole world just stopped in an instant and nothing really, getting that email off, getting the bill and the, like all those things just didn't matter at the stop of a dime. So we started to really value what was important and the things that we can't make more of is our time, energy, and attention.

We can always make more money. 

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[00:16:39] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I mean, time really has become more precious, I think, than ever. And like you said, our energy, where we're putting that at this moment. And what do we actually want to spend that energy and time on? Are there things that we should be looking at when it comes to, okay, so I know what I want, this is what I'm kind of needing in a community, but maybe we're not In a place where we're finding it and maybe more often we're online are there places that we could be online in order to find some of this?

[00:17:12] Jamie Chapman: It's an interesting question. I mean, there's a lot of different communities out there. I feel, I went through this trend of attending a lot of online things, but running into the same faces and being frustrated by that. Like, it was, it's great to build deeper connection and relationship by seeing the same people over and over, but there's something really beautiful about for me anyway, about walking into a room where I don't know anybody because it's like a room of opportunity.

And I feel like. It's easier to find online connection. It's harder to find in person connection. So I would invite those to find something outside of the online space to help you build a deeper human connection with somebody for like, for real.

[00:17:55] Dawn Calvinisti: I think often we can hide, right? Like, it's way easier to hide behind my computer screen and sit in a group or in a zoom room, or, just be a part of that crowd and not go beyond surface because when you're in person, you're kind of forced to.

[00:18:12] Jamie Chapman: Yeah. And in that space, I mean, something that could push someone out of their comfort zone would be, maybe say to yourself, every zoom networking event I go to, I'm going to find one person and I'm going to book a coffee connect with them to, to build a deeper relationship and conversation with them kind of force yourself out of just being another face on the screen and just showing up and checking that box.

[00:18:34] Dawn Calvinisti: Yeah, that's a good tip. When it comes to in person events, one of the things that I, I say this all the time, and I'm thinking of my other people out there that are also, maybe a little more timid, maybe, a little more of the timid, Like, watching the, the room rather than being the person that's making making the situation happen.

And that's certainly what my experience is. What are ways that we can feel more comfortable when we are in that space? And maybe it is like, a business association meeting where we know nobody and walking in there is is terrifying. 

[00:19:09] Jamie Chapman: Yeah. Well, I hope every room like that has a Jamie Chapman because I see those people and I walk up to them and I just start talking to them because I know that they have so many gifts inside to offer and they, they do want to be seen and they, they want to connect, but they may feel overwhelmed emotionally dysregulated, anxious.

There's so much going on that they may just struggle to walk up to a person. Say hi. So that would be my first wish. But I think the buddy system has worked for me in the past, even though I would say that I'm an extrovert, there are times where I'm like, I really want to go. And if I can get a friend to go with me, at least it's kind of like having a gym buddy.

Like, you'll definitely show up if a friend is going to be there. The key to that, though, is not just standing there with your friend for the whole event. But you do have to, you have to What was that? You have to make sure you leave your, your, when you're standing in places, it needs to be a croissant, not a donut, right?

You always have to like, leave that open space for people to come up and, and, and share what, share in your conversation as well. 

[00:20:13] Dawn Calvinisti: For sure. And I mean, really, it's, it's a good piece of advice. Bring someone with you. I mean, even if they're not looking to be in the business space, it still feels better just to have someone that you feel comfortable with in order to just walk through that door.

So for sure, right? 

[00:20:30] Jamie Chapman: Yeah. And haven't have an exit strategy. 

[00:20:32] Dawn Calvinisti: Yes, good point. Super good point because yeah, there, there is a time where for you enough might be enough and you do need to just remove yourself in order to be able to do this again. And it be a good experience. Right? When it comes to. The whole idea of relationship, and I love, I mean, you and I have connected a bit and I love that you're an extrovert.

That's very helpful for me as an introvert. So do you think that in the business world, like in the dating relationship world, that opposites attract?

[00:21:03] Jamie Chapman: I think there's value to having people that think and move about the world like you. But I think that there's more value in having people that don't. 

Something I say in my community is I'm looking for like hearted people, not like minded people, not people that think like me and move about the world like me, because I think they bring a different perspective.

So I think there's value to both. I think there's a comfort in having people that think like you, and I think that there's growth and opportunity in people that don't. 

[00:21:32] Dawn Calvinisti: I like when somebody challenges me. Not everybody likes that, but I like when somebody challenges me because often when you feel a little bit.

Not, I wouldn't say backed into a corner, but do you know what I mean? Like, when you feel a little uncomfortable. It's often the thing that you then go and you kind of ruminate on and start thinking, hmm, is, is my belief a little off? Do I not feel good in that area? Is it something I need to grow in? Is this something that I need to reconsider?

And so I think you're right. Like, having somebody who just gives you a different perspective can be super valuable in growing your business. 

[00:22:07] Jamie Chapman: Yeah, I love women that are willing to come to the table and say, well, what if we look at it from this way, all the different facets around, the diamond, let's just poke at it from this perspective.

And let's just play it out and see, see what we learn, see what we think. See, see where we land. I think that that's such a beautiful way to deepen relationship, to create conversation, to consider different perspectives.

[00:22:31] Dawn Calvinisti: One thing that I ask every guest that comes on the show is, Are you, more often a people pleaser, a perfectionist, or a procrastinator? 

[00:22:42] Jamie Chapman: Oh, I'm definitely not a people pleaser. I Would say that I would lean towards the perfectionist. I definitely have tendencies of, of the illusion of the control that perfectionism pretends to give you. 

[00:22:58] Dawn Calvinisti: Illusion of control. That's so true. So true. When people want to reach out and find you, Jamie, what is the best place for them to connect with you? 

[00:23:09] Jamie Chapman: Everything you could ever want is right on my website, ChickBookCreative. com. It's play off of QuickBooks, so it's ChickBookCreative. com. All my social links are there.

There's a sign up for my newsletter and information about my community as well. 

[00:23:23] Dawn Calvinisti: Thank you so much for being on the podcast. If there was one more thing that you could say to women today, what would it be? 

[00:23:30] Jamie Chapman: I try to focus each day with 1%. It's something I say often to a lot of people, and it's just 1 percent forward motion.

When I reflect on the end of my day, I just want to make sure that I've taken that, that forward step into achieving my goals. So, I always try to achieve 1 percent every day. 

[00:23:48] Dawn Calvinisti: If you would like to connect with Jamie, take a look in the show notes. You can grab all of the contact info there for her. I hope that you will share this episode with somebody else in your community.

And if you are struggling trying to find community, I really hope this serves you well in finding a place where you can build relationship. Thank you, Jamie, so much for this discussion. I think it is really important that we talk about relationship, especially when it comes to women in business. 

[00:24:16] Jamie Chapman: Thanks so much for having me, Dawn.

It was a great conversation.

[DAWN CALVINISTI]

Thanks for listening to today's show. If you found value in what you heard, please share it with a friend and rate and review us on whatever platform you listen on. It really helps get us out to other women who could benefit from listening. 

Check out our show notes for details from the show and to connect with me or our guests. Want to continue the conversation? My website is www.pursueprogress.com or DM me @pursueprogresswithdawn on Instagram. 

Until next week, pursue progress no matter how imperfectly.

Links from this episode:

CONNECT WITH DAWN:

Website: https://www.pursueprogress.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursueprogresswithdawn.com

Imperfection in Progress Podcast: https://www.pursueprogress.com/podcast

CONNECT WITH JAMIE:

Website: https://chickbookcreative.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamierchapman/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chickbookcreative/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chickbookcreative/

OTHER RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST:

Umbrella Virtual Solutions: https://www.umbrellavs.com

Book Your Free 30 Minute Strategy Call with the host, Dawn Calvinisti: https://link.theviphub.ca/widget/bookings/dawncalvinisti/strategy